Geoff Johns, Jeremy Adams, and Tim Sheridan Break Down the Flashpoint Beyond Finale

DC’s Flashpoint Beyond wraps up this week with issue six and with its conclusion has not only revealed the fate of the Flashpoint Universe but set the stage for what’s next for the DC Multiverse on the whole. It’s a story with a lot of moving parts, not only as it revisits the Flashpoint Universe and fully reveals Bruce Wayne’s role in things, but also one that leads to new comics as well —specifically with ties to the upcoming The New Golden Age— all while centering around a larger story about trauma, grief, and how to move beyond both.

ComicBook.com recently had the opportunity to sit back down with series writers Jeremy Adams, Geoff Johns, and Tim Sheridan to talk about the shocking and poignant ending of Flashpoint Beyond and how the series explores themes of a father’s love and a son’s faith, how unlikeable the Time Masters can be, and what’s next from here.

Warning: full spoilers for Flashpoint Beyond #6 beyond this point.

Nicole Drum, ComicBook.com: So, let’s go full spoilers. Because this issue, for me, screams the balance between a father’s love and a son’s faith.

Geoff Johns: Absolutely right. And you know what I love the most, Nicole, that you’re starting with this, we’re talking about this, with the heart of it. Because that’s why we tell the story. It’s really cool to have the extra epilogues and the nods to other DC universes and stuff. But really, it is all about that. That’s the story. And that’s why we told this story, is because of those two things.

And a lot of that hinges on somebody who you wouldn’t expect to be that. Dexter turns out to be the actual heart of the story in a very real way. Because it’s his fate that literally changes everybody else’s fate. Talk to me about why Dexter becomes the still point in many, many moving universes.

Tim Sheridan: Well, we were just talking about this. We all know that Thomas Wayne Batman is a creature born of the Flashpoint universe. But Dexter is actually born in the Flashpoint universe. And I think that he is the perfect representation of what does and doesn’t matter. That’s the big question that Thomas is up against. He thinks he has an answer to it. He says, “None of this really matters because none of this should exist.” But yet here’s Dexter, a character that doesn’t exist outside of Flashpoint, that we’ve never seen or know of. And so, in a way, that, I think, just his uniqueness put him right at the center of this. I think, probably, it was one of those hidden things from the beginning. I think if you’re paying attention, you realize this is a character that we should really be focused on. And not just because he’s probably going to be Robin. But really, why is he the center? Why is he going to be the center point of this story?

So, I’m thrilled that that landed for you, and that you saw it that way. He is the uniting force, ultimately, in the end, really, between Thomas and Martha as well. We see, and since we’re able to talk a little spoiler here, we see Batman and Robin going off to be Batman and Robin, which we’re used to. And we know what that means. But what does it mean to have Joker back there in that cell, egging them on, encouraging them? And also reminding him about Dexter’s shoelaces, which is this, as Geoff will say, it’s this incredibly maternal moment that represents this glimmer of hope for them, for all of them.

There is something about how we move through our lives. And I don’t have kids. Jeremy and Geoff do. But to me, it seems like our children are these windows into the future. And not even just windows. They’re a race track for us into the future. And I think that’s what Dexter is all about. I think that’s what he ends up meaning in the end of this.

Johns: That’s perfectly said, perfectly said. And also, that last image of these three people, this, I guess through the Flashpoint lens, what a family can look like. Because that’s what it is, a violent, grief-stricken lens. How can a family emerge from that and form? And this is that family that only could exist in this way, that only could exist in this universe. And it’s cool that Dexter, there is no other Dexter. There’s only this Dexter. Dexter Dent is only in this timeline, only in the Flashpoint timeline. And that, to me, is exciting for that character because he can remain unique there.

Jeremy Adams: Yeah. It’s not the dynamic duo. It’s the traumatized trio.

That, and by the way, that’s the thing that I always liked, too. And there’s some things that I’m just too stupid enough to realize what’s going on, but it’s that sixth sense element of the fact that you went back and you’re seeing all these pieces of the puzzle that leads up. And the magic trick is we want you to look at it, but we don’t want you to look at it too hard because if you push too hard on Dexter, it’s just going to ruin some of the catharsis and surprise of where that goes. And really, the minute five started, issue five started, it was it a race. Five and six are a race to the end. It’s all this mystery, and then it’s just like this is coming at you really quick. But it’s exciting in that way. It’s a slow burn in that way. And hopefully, like I said, the catharsis of it has a bigger impact when it finally shows up.

Absolutely. And that’s actually part of the reason I ended up having to go back, is because I get hit by this ton of bricks after reading it and realizing here’s Dexter. He’s such a part of it. And that’s why I went back to follow it through. And it follows very much along with the trauma healing process, where you do all this work, and you don’t necessarily see the pieces coming together until all of a sudden when you’re hit with the thing that’s going to change you, it happens so fast.

 

But it also sets up an interesting thing because Flashpoint ends, but it doesn’t. So, we’ve still got this contained world that is both hopeful and ominous. And I think that’s an interesting way to go back to this thought. This adage kept rolling through my head as I was reading. “The only way out is through.” And something we really see is Thomas and Martha, the idea we’re going to go back and fix this, but that’s not the way out. They have to go through, and they’re still going through at the end of this story. Was it important for you guys to not blow that world up, in a sense, and to leave it as a living entity?

Johns: That’s 100% the point, right? When it’s Barry Allen’s story in Flashpoint, the point is to get back to the world that exists where you did suffer that loss, and you have to go through it. You have to deal with it. You have to move forward with it. In this, Thomas Wayne is doing the opposite. Well, he’s saying, “I’ve got to destroy all this so I can go back to that world.” But then ultimately, if we had done that and destroyed this at the end, it would’ve completely undercut and broke the story, the emotional story, which is you can’t change it. You need to live with this. You need to go through this. You need to move on with it, and you need to exist in this state of being the best way you can.

So, we had to keep the world alive. Otherwise, the story wouldn’t have worked. The story wouldn’t have told the emotional message and the story that is what Flashpoint Beyond is built on. So, we couldn’t destroy it. The whole point is it has to continue.

Sheridan: Because you’re moving beyond it, yeah.

Johns: That’s what Beyond‘s about.

And one thing that’s also interesting is there’s a healing journey on the other side of Beyond as well. It just looks a little bit different. And we’re talking about Bruce in the real world. And for him, he’s lost his father in his real life. He lost his father again in Flashpoint. And now here’s this other opportunity. But for Bruce, he’s having to let go of control, in a sense. And he has to end up putting all this chips on being right. But let’s talk a little bit about Bruce being smarter than the Time Masters in this situation here. Because I don’t like the Time Masters, and I enjoyed that very, very much.

Johns: Yeah, you’re not supposed to the Time Masters in the sense of their attitude. And you’re supposed to be intrigued by them, maybe humored by them. But certainly not… They’re not the most … loveable, warm group of people. And we’ll see the Time Masters more in New Golden Age and beyond, but they’re not supposed to be that. They’re a very different type of group. But the point is, Bruce believed, to go back to the faith in his father, because of what he knew about him, and the letter that he wrote him. And Rip Hunter’s factual knowing that that timeline’s a mess, that Martha Wayne’s alive in there, and no doubt they’re going to encounter one another. And that Thomas Wayne’s going to have to face all that, and he doesn’t think that he’s going to do it. He’s going to continue to choose the wrong way, to get in that time sphere and blow it all up.

And so, it’s those two warring people, someone who has absolute faith in someone they love, their father, and someone who’s very clinical about what this looks like and doesn’t think anyone’s capable of accepting a reality where they lost their son. And ultimately, Bruce knows that his father would be willing to do that. He got there once with this letter. It said that, if I ever got a second chance. And so, he’s believing in that, where Rick just doesn’t know that, doesn’t believe in that.

Sheridan: I just love the fact that, the weird irony of it, is that Bruce playing a game, it’s just about time. And he just needs enough time to accept it. And then you have this guy who’s the Time Master comes in and is just like, “No, your time is up.” And Bruce is that much ahead because Thomas accepts it in that moment. And Rip knows. It’s like, oh, okay.

Johns: And I love that. I love that Rip is like, “This is emotional, personal to you.” He’s almost insulting when he says, “I know how personal this is to you.” It’s almost demeaning, like, “Your emotion’s clouding your judgment.” And I want to be like, “F you, Rip.”

Adams: My emotion is driving my judgment.

Johns: Yeah, that’s why you do something. Your emotion is what makes you driven. Your emotion is why you risk your life, why you sacrifice things in your life for somebody else. Emotion is what drives us to do things that matter in the best ways. And Rip thinks that’s the opposite. And I love that moment, I both love and hate that moment, when Rip is, it’s almost like he’s petting Bruce on the head. “You’re really emotional right now, sir.”

Sheridan: But also, what’s cool about it is that he’s petting Bruce on the head. And that doesn’t happen often.

Johns: Well no. And I love when Rip’s like, I like the opening when he is like, “Bruce, you have to stop this.” And he’s like, This guy doesn’t know me.

Sheridan: Yeah, he keeps using my name, though.

Johns: Yeah. Stop calling me [by my first name]. Drives Clark crazy. But I like that we’ve centered Rip Hunter and these Time Masters as they’re almost antagonist within the DC universe, even though they act like heroes. They think they’re heroes.

I also think it’s interesting the idea that emotion being such a huge part of the driving force of this. Because a lot of times, I think, when we think about Batman stories, even though we know large scale, that everything Batman does is driven by emotion, largely in grief, we don’t often get to see how that translates outside of punching bad guys. And in here, we get to see two sides of what that emotion does for drive for two Batman characters in a very real and complex way. And I think that’s an interesting way of exploring that, versus the clinicality of the Time Masters, who I wanted to punch the entire time.

Johns: You’ll continue to want to punch them as you see them in New Golden Age.

And let’s talk about that a little bit. Because I knew, logically, that we’re going to get a bridge of sorts to this very exciting new chapter of stories coming up. But this is, when you get to those little bridges, sometimes it can feel like an afterthought to the story. And in this case, it’s very integrated. We get a pathway to these three different directions that we’re going about.

We know Degaton’s going to be an issue for the JSA. We’ve got this 13 that are being reabsorbed into the past, and then we’ve got Nostalgia. How do you guys, as a collective storytelling group, balance this very important, very emotional story that is Flashpoint Beyond, that is its own entity, with creating this bridge to this completely different, but also really enriching complex sounding next phase, next chapter?

Johns: Well, so many events, big events stories, a lot of them end with the character returning. And rather than having characters returning, really, it was about introducing the new. It’s time for new characters, not just in DC’s present, but also in DC’s past. Because what it does for the past as these characters get reintegrated into the golden age, and it’s the New Golden Age both today and yesterday, is that there’s stories untold now. There’s characters unknown. It’s going to enrich, and they all have connections to, some of them have connections to, some of the major characters in DC’s Golden Age. And they’ll also be moving into today as well.

So, you’ll see it allows us to expand the past without changing the past. We’re just adding to the past. And I think that’s really exciting. And adding to the present and adding to the future because the New Golden Age will touch upon stuff that goes from the 40s all the way to the 31st century.

It is not just about the JSA. It’s about the JSA, the Time Masters, the Legion of Super-Heroes. It’s about new characters. It’s about expanding DC’s history on every level, all at the same time, everywhere at once. That, to me, is exciting because it hasn’t been done. It feels new, and there’s characters that you’re not like, “Oh they’re back.” You’re like, “Who are they? What are they want? Where are they from? What are they going to do? What did they do?” And that’s the key, is to make an event for once that is all about what’s new, but it feels integrated into everything that came before and everything that’s now and everything that’s going forward. That was the goal of it all.

Sheridan: For me, it’s not even a matter of balancing one thing and the other thing, in terms of the Flashpoint Beyond story and the rest of it. It’s all, really, part of the same thing. When you think about Flashpoint, what Jeff just described is, in so many ways, what Thomas and Martha Wayne represent in Flashpoint. These were not new characters, Thomas and Martha Wayne. But we filled, Jeff filled, in a whole new history for them and a whole world of character and information about them. It was like getting this gift of revisiting characters whose names we knew, but we got to see them in a new light. And so, it seems like that is what’s coming next and in a lot of ways.

Adams: It was funny. You guys were talking about the thing, and then for whatever reason in the back of my head, I was like, I wonder what Martha and Harley Quinn together would be talking about?

It was just the idea what you were talking about, the new Golden Age, and just the jumping off point in certain ways. And with Xermanico’s art, especially, he made these characters something that you do… I wish we could say it was all us, but Xermanico’s art makes you go, “Man, I’d really like to see these characters again.” Because it’s so pretty. It’s so tragic. It’s so maudlin and whatever. It’s heartbreaking. And I just think about that because there is that cliff hanger-esque ending. You both want to see it, and you both don’t want to see it, so you don’t ruin it.

Johns: But the cool thing is, you know whatever’s happening, I don’t think you walk away going, “Oh, the Kryptonians are going to win.” You’re like, “Oh, they’re so dead. Jor-El and his cronies are, they’re done.

I’ve got one last thing I want to ask you guys. For Flashpoint Beyond in general, but also specifically for six, what is each of your favorite thing about this body of work?

Sheridan: If you mean in the pages of the book, it’s a different answer. Because I think that for me, the greatest thing, my favorite thing, has been not only getting to continue to work with my dear friend Jeremy Adams, but to be able to make a new friend in Jeff. And find that we were three guys who set out and were always telling the same story. And there is a magic that happens when everybody in the room is working on telling the same story, including the incredible artists we have on the book as well. I will never forget this experience. It’s been just the most incredible thing that I’ve ever gotten to do, certainly in comics.

Johns: Yeah, it’s been super fun, Nicole, because the best thing about the comics is they turn into totems for a point and an experience in your life. And Flashpoint Beyond‘s going to be that book on my shelf, right next to Flashpoint, where I never thought I’d revisit Flashpoint. But to do with Jeremy and Tim and Xermanico and Mikel, it actually, it’s an experience that’s a super positive one. And it is about making new friends and having a great collaboration and seeing something that I’m really proud of. Because that book, I will forever… Because Flashpoint, I’m like, “Oh my gosh. I like how it stands alone.” I was like that.

But having this by it, it makes a great volume one and two. Because volume one and two have the same emotional core. It’s not just taking Batman, Thomas Wayne. He’s like, “Oh, he is a super violent Batman. He does this.” It’s the same emotional story of grief here and grief here. And you see two great characters, Barry Allen and Thomas Wayne, and how they eventually come to grips with it and move forward. And I think it’s a cool, for me, that’s what made it really cool.

Sheridan: Well, and Bruce. And if it’s something within the pages of the book that I just… It’s endearing. It means everything to me, is what Jeff has done to make this story not just about Thomas’s journey with grief, but also Bruce’s as well. And that was a really, just a great way to come at this thing. And I can’t wait to read this book. I hear it’s good.

Adams: And listen, pragmatically, what Jeff said, it’s funny. Because you’re talking about these books almost like you talk about hyper-time, in terms of the emotional planet creation in that moment. But obviously, working with these guys would be great. But if you wanted the practical answer for me, it’s issue two when Dent smashes her face into the glass. And I remember getting those pages back, and I swear to you, there was something in my brain that went like, “Oh, this is a much more important book than I think I thought it was going to be.” And there was just something so violent and beautiful about it that I remember I’ve gushed over it multiple interviews, but that was the thing that shifted it in my head to, “Oh, I actually have to bring a little more to this.”

Sheridan: We should just mention the pages and panels that just knocked us… I don’t know that there was ever a page that came back that we didn’t all just get knocked over. If you could see the email thread among all of us when we get a page.

Johns: Well, you see in five, when he breaks through the glass, and it’s this mosaic of Batman saving Robin. It’s this mosaic of Robin dying, and Batman helping Robin, from across all of comics. And then I love the back and forth between Mikel Janin’s pages with the globe, and the mom and dad and child snowman family within it with the bat cave and Dexter and Thomas and Martha. Those back and forth where you can also trace, visually trace, this all the way back to issue zero. And every single emotional through line begins in zero and pays off by six.

And even the DCU cool breadcrumbs to all these other stories do too. But more importantly, my favorite moments are all the payoffs of Martha protecting Dexter, and Dexter saying what happens to me, and all of that great stuff. Because we always knew it was going to happen since issue zero. And that it held fast to our emotional story from the beginning. All those beats played out, and they look so beautiful. Every one of those are my favorite moments in story.

And hopefully, again, it’s a story where, everyone loses somebody. Everyone has grief they’re dealing with. And just this story just says, “Keep going. We’ve all gone through it. Your favorite characters have gone through it, so you got to keep going.” The best thing about superhero stories is that they do help us outside of the comic books, outside of life. And we just want to remind everybody that we’re all there. When you get to it, when you’re in it, be these characters.

Flashpoint Beyond #6 is on sale now.